TONYA MOSLEY, HOST:

That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “IT’S NASTY (GENIUS OF LOVE)”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: Women and gents, it is now the time for the Grandmaster Flash and the Livid 5 MCs. (Rapping) We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re coming. We’re right here. Oh.

MOSLEY: Whereas DJ Kool Herc is commonly credited as the daddy of hip-hop, Grandmaster Flash was one of many first DJs to make profitable rap information and grow to be a pioneer within the style. Within the ’70s, he developed mixing and scratching methods that grew to become a part of the fundamentals of hip-hop. He spoke to Terry Gross in 2002.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS: Grandmaster Flash, welcome to FRESH AIR.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Thanks for having me.

GROSS: I am involved in the way you began mixing music, the way you began utilizing two turntables or perhaps much more than two. Was this one thing you began doing at dwelling or in golf equipment as a DJ?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: My love for vinyl and for the turntables in all probability began off after I was a toddler, ? Rising up at dwelling, I used to be fairly lucky to be round a montage of various kinds of music. Like, my sisters, my larger sisters, had been into, like, Tito Puente, Joe Bataan. Like, my father was into, like, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, Cab Calloway. My mom was, like, into Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne and stuff of that nature. So – and I had a sister that was, like, into the Michael Jackson sound. So I used to be fairly lucky to develop up listening to fairly a little bit of vinyl. And I in all probability – my love for it in all probability took place after I was sufficiently old to form of begin trying into turntables and stuff of that nature.

And that is in all probability, , though it was a unfavourable expertise – and after I say unfavourable, which means, like, I used to simply form of take aside electrical objects in my mom’s home, together with turntables, simply to determine how they work and why they work. And my intention was to place it again collectively correctly, however I simply couldn’t do it. However I simply had this factor the place I simply needed to understand how the within of a turntable labored, how the within of a radio labored and the way my father’s stereo. And that is in all probability the place it actually began, identical to had this timeless curiosity of…

GROSS: Properly, you principally began utilizing turntables as in the event that they had been devices. What…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Yeah.

GROSS: How did you begin utilizing turntables to alter the music that you simply had been listening to versus simply enjoying the music?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Properly, I believe, arising, I watched numerous DJs in my early teenagers. And watching the DJs of that individual time, they had been enjoying the music, like, my influences. Though they had been nice, constructive influences – I am speaking about DJ Kool Herc and Pete DJ Jones. These two DJs impressed me to do what I did. And they’d play the music. And I simply form of felt like, I can take probably the most thrilling a part of a file, which we name the break, and form of lengthen that, as a result of numerous these songs that I used to be listening to had been, like, obscure funk tunes the place the break part was, like, perhaps 10 seconds lengthy.

And from a annoyed standpoint, I had this thought that if I can simply give you a system, a means of simply taking duplicate copies of the file with two turntables and a mixer, I can lengthen that five- or 10-second half seamlessly and make it 10 minutes if I needed to. And that is, , my ideas manifested into creating an artwork kind known as the quick-mix concept, which is definitely taking a passage of music or two duplicate copies of vinyl and form of shifting the disc backwards and forwards and repeating a bit of the passage, , between duplicate copies of the file. That is the place it began.

GROSS: So that you’d let, like, the ten seconds play on one file after which swap to the opposite turntable, and in the meantime again up the primary turntable to the start of that a part of the file?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Precisely. That was known as the clock concept. Yeah.

GROSS: Since you had been placing the needle down on precisely the fitting a part of the file with the rhythm that you simply needed to listen to, might you truly – , some folks say that you simply had been in a position to have a look at the grooves of a vinyl file and know precisely the place the rhythm was that you simply needed, that you might truly see it within the grooves.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Properly, truly, , I used to be fairly first rate at it. But it surely was my first scholar that I taught this quick-mix concept to, Grandwizzard Theodore, was in all probability the perfect at that. And it was known as needle drops. However what I got here up with is what I name the clock concept. And the clock concept was the place you’ll place the needles down on each copies of the vinyl. And when the ending of 1 was over, you’ll push within the subsequent fader. However whereas the opposite one was enjoying, you’ll form of spin the file again one or two revolutions to the highest of that break. After which when the opposite one was over, you’ll push within the different. So it was like push, spin again, push, spin again.

So I truly by no means – , this made it an assured means of with the ability to get again to the start of the break part with out truly having to tug the needle up. And what I might do is I might mark, like, on the label. If it was, like, a file from – if it was a 12-inch from Atlantic Information, and if the break started, let’s simply say, on the high of the A, I might form of put, like, a magic marker proper there. So that will be my clock of the place I needed to carry the file again, one or two revolutions again, to re-arrive on the high of the break. And I might simply form of do that with two copies of information backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards.

So selecting up the needle, , was not a problem, as a result of that wasn’t particular as a result of when you picked it up – , I might all the time get near it, but it surely was by no means actually, like, actual. And creating the clock concept, which all DJs use at the moment now, the place they mark the album at a sure level, is certainly one of my contributions to the artwork of the DJ combine.

MOSLEY: We’ll hear extra of Terry’s 2005 interview with Grandmaster Flash after a break and likewise an interview with Melle Mel, who rapped on the hits “The Message” and “White Traces.” I am Tonya Mosley, and that is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “FREEDOM”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Yeah. Younger women within the place, really feel the highs. Really feel the bass. If you wish to rock until the break of daybreak, any individual say, come on. Come on. Melle Mel, proper on time – Taurus the bull is my Zodiac signal. And I am Mr. Ness, and I am able to go.

MOSLEY: That is FRESH AIR. I am Tonya Mosley. This week we’re celebrating hip-hop’s fiftieth anniversary by listening again to interviews with a number of the most influential rappers and DJs over the previous 5 many years. Let’s get again to the 2002 interview Terry Gross recorded with certainly one of hip-hop’s pioneers, Grandmaster Flash.

GROSS: Why do not we hearken to certainly one of your now-classic recordings? And that is “The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Metal.”

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) You say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, one for the treble, two for the time. Come on, ladies. Let’s rock that. Fab 5 Freddie informed me all people’s fly. DJs spinning are saving my thoughts. Flash is quick. Flash is quick. Flash is quick. Flash is cool. Francois sez fas, Flashe’ no do. You say one for the difficulty, two for the time. Come on, ladies. Let’s rock that (singing) good occasions.

GROSS: That is Grandmaster Flash from the early ’80s, certainly one of his traditional recordings, “The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Metal.” You already know what I would love to do? I would like to listen to that once more. However this time, hold your microphone on and have you ever describe what you are doing as we hearken to it. Right here we go.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) You say, you say…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Punch phrase.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) You say, you say, you say…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: That is Spoonie Gee, “Monster Jam.”

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) One for the difficulty, two for the time…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: I let it go there.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Come on, ladies. Let’s rock that. Fab 5 Freddie informed me all people’s fly…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Into Blondie right here.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) DJs spinning are saving my thoughts. Flash is quick…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Punch phrase.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Flash is quick…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Punch phrase.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Flash is quick. Flash is cool. Francois sez fas, Flashe’ no do. You say one for the difficulty.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Again to Spoonie once more.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Two for the time. Come on, ladies. Let’s rock that (singing) good occasions.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Into “Good Instances,” Stylish.

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Into “Apache” on the rub.

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Chopping it up. Chopping it up. Again in once more. Punch phrase, Queen, “One other One Bites The Mud.” In.

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Chopping it to rhythm. (Vocalizing). I am utilizing “Good Instances” to rub the rhythm in opposition to Queen.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Singing) Good occasions.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: “Good Instances” by Stylish.

GROSS: Now, that launch is so good, the way in which it synchronizes there.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Thanks. Thanks. That is the entire key to it, ? That is what my contribution is. Conserving it on time, that was, like, the important thing.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Grandmaster, reduce quicker.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: I punch phrase from “Freedom.”

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Reduce quicker. Grandmaster, reduce, reduce, reduce quicker.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Chopping it up.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE: (Rapping) Grandmaster. Grandmaster, reduce quicker.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: I punch phrase in “Good Instances.”

(SOUNDBITE OF GRANDMASTER FLASH AND THE FURIOUS FIVE SONG, “THE ADVENTURES OF GRANDMASTER FLASH ON THE WHEELS OF STEEL”)

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Again to “Good Instances.”

GROSS: That is Grandmaster Flash strolling us by his recording “The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Metal,” recorded in 1981. You already know, the way in which “Good Instances” and Queen’s “One other One Bites The Mud,” the way in which the rhythm of the 2 work collectively is basically good. What made you concentrate on placing these two collectively?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Properly, in all probability – I imply, first, they had been two fairly massive songs at that individual time, and so they’re virtually in the identical key. They’re virtually equivalent in the way in which that the bass was being performed. And so they labored very well within the membership again within the days. So I felt, , placing it within the combine was, like, an actual good thought, ?

GROSS: Now, was scratching one thing that you simply invented? Or was that invented by one of many individuals who influenced you?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Properly, truly, it was known as slicing. And the entire thing was, like I stated earlier within the interview, is known as the quick-mix concept. And we known as it slicing as a result of it was truly taking a bit of the rhythm and rearranging it. And that is one thing that I’ve created over 27 years in the past. It is now known as scratching, which is form of simply, like, one half. It is virtually like, , saying to a boxer, he is boxing, however now we will name it proper hook, ? The fitting hook is just one space of a boxer’s talent. And, like, the scratching is only one space of what this factor, , entails, , while you take a look at it.

GROSS: Scratching, only for any of our listeners who do not know what scratching is, is while you’re shifting the file backwards and forwards with the needle on it. And the sound of the needle scratching the file creates a part of the rhythm observe that you are going for.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Proper, a percussive form of sound. Proper.

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Precisely.

GROSS: So did you apply that quite a bit at dwelling so you might simply, like, actually play these turntables as devices and do precisely what you needed on them?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Yeah, I form of – I used to be searching for one thing as a result of at the moment, what I needed to give you, this science, there was no level of reference, no blueprints round. So I used to be continuously at it, sure. However I used to be searching for one thing. And as I used to be searching for one thing, , I might run into obstacles. And that is when, , I needed to get thinking about arising with totally different methods with simply, like, torque versus inertia for turntables, ?

As a result of numerous the turntables – like, you should buy a turntable now that is fitted to no matter you need. You need it to do that? You should purchase a turntable for that or a mixer or a needle. However at this specific time within the ’70s, these things did not exist. So I needed to, like, truly give you science and phrases and terminologies, ? And with turntables, I got here up with this factor known as the torque issue. And the torque issue relies on – from the state of inertia and also you press that energy swap, if that platter takes greater than a flip to be in control, then the torque of that motor wasn’t excellent, ? So in my search, , I went by numerous quantity of turntables.

So I truly create {the electrical} objects first earlier than even arising with the quick-mix concept. After which I needed to go take a look at needles. After which I realized that needles, , had been in two classifications, which is, one is the elliptical and the opposite is the conical, ? And conical, though it does not sound pretty much as good, it stood within the grooves higher as a result of it was formed like a nail, versus, like, an elliptical stylus that was constructed like a backwards J. However as quickly as you’ll carry the disc again, it might fall out of the groove. So , all these items needed to come into play earlier than I even was in a position to even begin doing any slicing, scratching or regardless of the case could also be.

GROSS: You will need to have been fairly obsessive at the moment, taking aside turntables and searching for simply the fitting needle and, , designing all these variations on the know-how that you simply had been utilizing so it might do what you wanted it to do. You will need to have actually been intense.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Properly, I in all probability was extra annoyed than something as a result of, I imply, a lot stuff I had to purchase. Like, numerous it was trial and error, , making an attempt to get my fingers on the fitting needle. You already know, I needed to undergo numerous needles. You already know, in looking for the fitting turntable, I needed to undergo numerous turntables. After which discovering the fitting mixer – however then it did not have a system the place I can pre-hear the music in my head. So I needed to create one thing known as the Peek-A-Boo system. So I needed to, like, truly jerry-rig these items, ?

And my frustration stored me extra – it fueled the fireplace to me simply staying at this and staying at this and, , throwing away my teenage years, , the place – , your teenage years is when, , you feel your oats. And also you need to go hang around with the ladies, and also you need to go to the events and stuff. I believe I in all probability lived both, like, within the junkyards, going by, like, deserted stereo tools or, , going by deserted automobiles and taking out the audio system and the radios and stuff of that nature. I in all probability was – lived in my room extra, so – , simply searching for one thing, …

GROSS: Did you have got the cash…

GRANDMASTER FLASH: …In my frustration.

GROSS: Did you have got the cash to purchase numerous stereo tools?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: No. That is why I had to enter backyards and search for stuff and form of, like, undergo deserted automobiles or ask folks, , that may have been throwing away stuff simply – , simply in order that I can simply principally have these items. However at this time limit, I nonetheless did not know what these inner components was. So whereas I used to be tearing up all of the stuff inside my mom’s home and have become, like, public enemy No. 1 with my sisters and stuff, my mom determined to ship me to highschool.

GROSS: What sort of college?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Samuel Gompers Vocational and Technical Excessive College. And that is the place I began to grasp, like, what’s a resistor, what’s a capacitor, what’s AC versus DC, what’s a transformer, what’s a push-pull circuit, what’s a diode rectifier, what’s transistorized versus tubes and what’s an O meter and what’s an oscilloscope and what’s a wave. And, , I began, like, truly understanding as I used to be, , not – so now, after I tore into one thing, I form of had considerably of an thought of what it’s and what it did. So all these items helped me to jerry-rig and put collectively, , this Peek-A-Boo system to a mixer that did not have it and to determine, , how turntables work and the way that works. So it type of helped me to place collectively the system in order that I can begin on getting this idea out of my head that simply stored – , it simply stored staying in my head, so to talk.

GROSS: Let’s get again to your new CD, the Grandmaster Flash “Important Combine: Basic Version.” One of many issues on right here is Blondie’s “Rapture,” and that is one of many songs that you simply pattern in “The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Metal” ‘trigger she mentions you within the track.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Sure.

GROSS: How did you discover out about one another? Are you aware?

GRANDMASTER FLASH: Properly, truly, the way it occurred was after I was – perhaps 10 years earlier than I recorded – making information, there was a gentleman by the title of Fab 5 Freddy who used to come back to my events. However he additionally had this unimaginable reference to, like, the whites and totally different races of individuals downtown within the village. So again within the days, he was, like, hanging downtown within the village, however he would come as much as the Bronx and occasion with Flash, Herc and Bam. And he was form of like our city crier, additionally. He would go downtown and say, hear. There’s – this man’s uptown, you guys. You already know, there’s this man named Flash. You bought to come back – , come test him, ? And he would say to me, I will carry certainly one of my good mates up, Deborah Harry. And all people at the moment knew who – knew that title. And I used to be principally on some, yeah, proper, no matter.

After which surprisingly sufficient, a few weeks later, he introduced this lady to my occasion. And he or she watched me play, and she or he was extraordinarily pleased with the way in which that I performed and stated that she was going to write down a track about me. I took it as a grain of salt, did not actually imagine it till perhaps two or three months later. And he or she did it. And he or she opened up so many doorways for hip-hop by doing that.

GROSS: Properly, why do not we shut with “Rapture,” which is in your new combine CD? And, Grandmaster Flash, thanks a lot for speaking with us.

GRANDMASTER FLASH: My pleasure.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, “RAPTURE”)

BLONDIE: (Singing) Again to again, sacroiliac, spineless motion and a wild assault. Nose to nose sightless solitude, and it is finger-popping, twenty-four hour buying in rapture. (Rapping) Fab 5 Freddy informed me all people’s fly. DJ spinning – I stated, my, my. Flash is again. Flash is again. Flash is again.

MOSLEY: Grandmaster Flash spoke to Terry Gross in 2002. After a break, we’ll proceed our celebration of hip-hop’s early pioneers with Melle Mel, who rapped on the hip-hop classics “The Message” and “White Traces.” That is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF THE INTERNET SONG, “ROLL (BURBANK FUNK)”)

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